Aug. 11, 2026
019: Shut Up and Let Me Enjoy What I Enjoy with Bond Halbert
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Bond Halbert joins David Newman to discuss a horological journey that began with a Japanese TV show and a blind chiropractor's tactile timepiece. Bond explores the emotional weight of a gold Rolex heirloom passed down from his father and his own tactical approach to negotiating in the Los Angeles jewelry district. From the unique hum of vintage Accutron tuning forks to the lore of the Gruen jump hour watch, Bond explains why his collection of seventy watches is about variety and self-expression rather than mere status. He shares valuable lessons on the importance of watch communities, the art of the walk away negotiation, and why the best reason to wear a great watch is to remind yourself that your time is truly valuable.
⏱️ Timestamps
00:01 : The Name is Bond
-
Introduction of Bond Halbert and the reality of sharing a name with a cinematic icon.
-
David explains why the show cannot play the famous James Bond theme song due to copyright rules.
01:41 : The Pop-Up Spark
-
Memories of a blind chiropractor's special watch that popped open to reveal the time by touch.
-
How the 1960s Japanese show Giant Robot created a childhood fascination with wrist-worn tools.
04:22 : The Heirloom Surprise
-
The emotional story of a gold Rolex Day-Date recovered from a loan to be gifted for Christmas.
-
Why David and Bond discuss the significance of passing down a "trophy" watch as a family legacy.
05:22 : Hunting the Submariner
-
Bond explains why he chose the Rolex Submariner as his first major purchase over Omega.
-
The decision to hunt for used pieces to maximize value and variety in a growing collection.
08:40 : Tactical Negotiation
-
Using printed online offers and a wallet with exactly half the cash to secure better deals.
-
The importance of being willing to walk away from the glass to get a major price cut.
10:20 : The Electric Hum
-
Exploring the unique engineering of vintage Bulova Accutrons and their vibrating tuning forks.
-
Why these electrical magnets create a distinctive sound that can be heard through a pillow.
13:48 : Presidential Lore
-
Decoding the history of the Rolex President name and its connection to Harry Truman.
-
Why Bond prefers fan-given nicknames like the Citizen Orca over corporate branding.
17:11 : The Gruen Jump Hour Mystery
-
A look at the vintage military watch where the entire face shifts for the twenty-four hour system.
-
Discussing the mechanical charms of vibrating alarms and paratrooper timepieces.
26:02 : Finding Community
-
How digital forums like the Poor Man's Watch Forum turn into real-world social groups.
-
The benefit of having a network of collectors to help vet prices and find rare pieces.
28:36 : High-End Catalog Collecting
-
Why David and Bond suggest visiting luxury boutiques in major cities just to request their hardcover catalogs.
-
Using these high-quality books as mini coffee table references for any collector.
35:07 : Avoiding Maintenance Traps
-
The necessity of having a trusted watchmaker before diving into vintage mechanical purchases.
-
Why service costs should always be deducted from the initial offer price of a used watch.
43:00 : Five Good Watches Versus One
-
Bond shares why a diverse collection of seventy watches beats owning a single expensive icon.
-
Final thoughts on why watches should be enjoyed for personal happiness rather than investment.
A great watch is a personal signal that reminds you that your time is truly your own.
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WEBVTT
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:10.005 --> 00:00:12.376
Deborah: Welcome to the
TomorrowZone Catalyst podcast.
00:00:12.386 --> 00:00:14.015
I'm your host, Deborah Reuben.
00:00:14.796 --> 00:00:19.815
The more complex our world becomes,
the more important it is to understand
00:00:19.846 --> 00:00:21.286
how are we making sense of it?
00:00:22.375 --> 00:00:27.875
Every day, organizations are navigating
uncertainty, integrating AI, responding
00:00:28.156 --> 00:00:32.185
to shifting markets, making decisions
that don't always have obvious answers.
00:00:32.616 --> 00:00:37.265
Yet even when people are looking
at the same information, they don't
00:00:37.366 --> 00:00:40.705
always arrive at the same conclusions.
00:00:41.476 --> 00:00:42.115
Why is that?
00:00:43.135 --> 00:00:48.355
So recently, Jennica and I came across
this article that gave us a simple
00:00:48.355 --> 00:00:54.096
but surprisingly powerful framework
For thinking about that question.
00:00:54.586 --> 00:00:58.466
And as we talked about it, we
realized its implications reach
00:00:58.496 --> 00:01:00.906
far beyond individual perspectives.
00:01:01.856 --> 00:01:05.476
It also has something to teach us
about how innovation and strategic
00:01:05.476 --> 00:01:10.956
decision-making and organizational
clarity, and how we design teams
00:01:11.126 --> 00:01:12.855
that are ready for what's next.
00:01:13.655 --> 00:01:19.326
So joining me today is TomorrowZone's
director of operations, Jennica Burgh.
00:01:19.326 --> 00:01:22.266
Jennica has an incredible ability
to uncover ideas that challenge
00:01:22.266 --> 00:01:26.975
conventional thinking while revealing
practical implications for organizations
00:01:26.976 --> 00:01:28.445
that are navigating change.
00:01:28.456 --> 00:01:30.596
Jennica, welcome to the show.
00:01:30.875 --> 00:01:31.666
Jennica: Thank you.
00:01:31.686 --> 00:01:33.676
I'm excited about this conversation.
00:01:33.765 --> 00:01:34.926
Deborah: Yeah, let's dive in.
00:01:35.066 --> 00:01:35.476
Jennica: Yeah.
00:01:35.476 --> 00:01:39.586
So I'm gonna share my screen just so
that you can… the audience here can
00:01:39.625 --> 00:01:41.716
see the article that we're talking about.
00:01:42.125 --> 00:01:46.475
And the article that we're discussing
is called Prickles and Goo, which is
00:01:46.475 --> 00:01:48.425
just… And I love this picture of- Yeah,
00:01:48.425 --> 00:01:48.835
Deborah: it's actually-
00:01:48.835 --> 00:01:49.015
the prickly and the goo … the
00:01:49.015 --> 00:01:49.265
Jennica: picture
00:01:49.335 --> 00:01:50.205
Deborah: caught my attention.
00:01:50.206 --> 00:01:50.426
Yeah.
00:01:51.066 --> 00:01:53.135
So yeah, good job to
the author who did that.
00:01:53.535 --> 00:01:54.015
Jennica: Yeah.
00:01:54.596 --> 00:01:56.155
And the author is Bill Richmond.
00:01:56.165 --> 00:01:59.215
And we will include a link to
this article in the show notes
00:01:59.255 --> 00:02:02.215
like we've done with previous ones
if you wanna read it yourself.
00:02:02.636 --> 00:02:05.366
So I'm just gonna give a brief
kind of summary of this article
00:02:05.366 --> 00:02:07.576
so that our audience knows
what we're talking about here.
00:02:07.935 --> 00:02:11.465
So drawing on the ideas of
philosopher Alan Watts, Richmond
00:02:11.465 --> 00:02:14.695
describes two different ways humans
tend to make sense of the world.
00:02:15.066 --> 00:02:18.946
Prickly thinking gravitates toward
precision, structure, categories,
00:02:18.946 --> 00:02:24.675
boundaries, explicit logic, and gooey
thinking notices relationships, patterns,
00:02:24.706 --> 00:02:27.566
context, intuition, meaning, vibe.
00:02:28.265 --> 00:02:31.875
And what I appreciated most is that
this isn't a personality assessment.
00:02:31.926 --> 00:02:35.645
This article argues that every one
of us moves between these ways of
00:02:35.655 --> 00:02:37.505
thinking, depending on the situation.
00:02:37.985 --> 00:02:40.335
Sometimes we're looking for
certainty and definition, and
00:02:40.355 --> 00:02:43.535
other times we're navigating
ambiguity and discovering meaning.
00:02:44.545 --> 00:02:46.475
You know, and as Deb and I were
talking about this article, we
00:02:46.475 --> 00:02:49.765
realized the bigger opportunity
wasn't just understanding people,
00:02:49.765 --> 00:02:52.135
it's also understanding organizations.
00:02:52.545 --> 00:02:56.445
How do these different cognitive
approaches influence decision-making?
00:02:56.515 --> 00:02:58.326
How do they shape innovation?
00:02:58.335 --> 00:03:00.725
What do they reveal about
organizational clarity?
00:03:01.055 --> 00:03:05.166
And perhaps most interesting, what
happens when AI enters the picture as an
00:03:05.166 --> 00:03:07.865
incredibly capable, prickly collaborator?
00:03:08.466 --> 00:03:11.446
And so that's the conversation
that we're gonna explore today.
00:03:12.674 --> 00:03:14.264
Deborah: I love this so much.
00:03:14.514 --> 00:03:14.954
Jennica: I know.
00:03:15.814 --> 00:03:18.714
Well, you are the one that found this,
and you were really excited about it.
00:03:18.724 --> 00:03:22.084
So what resonated with you about
this framework, and why do you think
00:03:22.084 --> 00:03:25.544
this language feels so useful for
organizations that are navigating
00:03:25.553 --> 00:03:27.424
continuing increasing complexity?
00:03:27.754 --> 00:03:28.394
Deborah: Yeah.
00:03:28.394 --> 00:03:33.443
Well, as I was reading this article,
I was just like, "Oh my gosh, I see
00:03:33.443 --> 00:03:36.583
this all the time." And just like
the ar- the author said, like once
00:03:36.584 --> 00:03:38.793
you see it, you can't unsee it.
00:03:38.863 --> 00:03:39.314
Mm-hmm.
00:03:39.314 --> 00:03:43.294
You see the pattern all over the place,
and it, it just gave words to something
00:03:43.294 --> 00:03:47.953
that I've been observing as I'm working
with teams that are cross-functional,
00:03:47.953 --> 00:03:50.914
and they're coming from so many
different perspectives, and they're,
00:03:50.953 --> 00:03:53.834
with the best intentions, trying to
work together to make awesome happen.
00:03:53.834 --> 00:03:57.084
But, um, you know, they're
still running into friction.
00:03:57.084 --> 00:04:02.663
And so the one thing I loved about
it is that it's not, like you said,
00:04:02.663 --> 00:04:04.413
it's not a personality assessment.
00:04:04.413 --> 00:04:04.913
Jennica: Yeah.
00:04:05.584 --> 00:04:09.823
Deborah: It's modes of thinking
that we continually move
00:04:09.823 --> 00:04:11.984
between and don't even notice.
00:04:12.793 --> 00:04:16.604
And, and I think that, you know,
when I read it, I recognized it,
00:04:16.604 --> 00:04:22.764
and I see so much prickly and
gooey situations happening in every
00:04:22.773 --> 00:04:27.244
innovation initiative and every software
implementation I've ever been a part of.
00:04:27.874 --> 00:04:32.373
It's like this invisible source of
just so much friction, but once you
00:04:32.373 --> 00:04:36.023
c- once you see and understand what's
happening, you can do something about it.
00:04:36.543 --> 00:04:36.833
Jennica: Yeah.
00:04:36.834 --> 00:04:38.324
Deborah: And also, it's a really fun name.
00:04:38.503 --> 00:04:38.954
Prickles- It
00:04:38.954 --> 00:04:39.543
Jennica: is … and goo.
00:04:39.543 --> 00:04:39.703
Prickles
00:04:39.703 --> 00:04:40.433
Deborah: and goo.
00:04:41.933 --> 00:04:45.483
Um, and so I just think that
it's a really fun way to create a
00:04:45.484 --> 00:04:47.013
different level of awareness- Yeah
00:04:47.444 --> 00:04:48.673
for how we work together.
00:04:48.673 --> 00:04:53.793
And in my book, Enter the TomorrowZone, I
talk about how often, uh, transformation
00:04:53.793 --> 00:04:59.073
fails when we don't have shared language
in cross-functional teams, and I think
00:04:59.073 --> 00:05:02.233
this gives us a, a shared language
to understand the modes of thinking
00:05:02.233 --> 00:05:07.083
that we might be bouncing between-
Yeah … without realizing it and gives
00:05:07.084 --> 00:05:12.904
us- permission to, to just pause for a
moment and say, "You know, I think we
00:05:12.904 --> 00:05:17.414
may be in different thinking modes right
now," instead of just arguing or assuming
00:05:17.654 --> 00:05:19.964
bad intent on the part of someone else.
00:05:20.263 --> 00:05:20.863
Jennica: Yeah.
00:05:20.973 --> 00:05:25.724
And you know, it, I, I love that the
artic- the author, he makes a point that
00:05:25.734 --> 00:05:29.733
when we're in one mode, it's very easy to
look at someone in the other mode and go,
00:05:29.764 --> 00:05:37.313
"They're wrong." When in reality, both
are super important and both bring value.
00:05:37.633 --> 00:05:41.603
And just, a- again, having that
shared language of recognizing that,
00:05:41.604 --> 00:05:44.853
okay, the prickles are important
to me right now, but the goos are
00:05:44.854 --> 00:05:46.474
important to you, and how can…
00:05:46.483 --> 00:05:48.133
You know, they, they're both important.
00:05:48.163 --> 00:05:50.893
So you know, and this
moves into alignment.
00:05:50.904 --> 00:05:53.513
You know, you mentioned your book,
Enter the TomorrowZone, and alignment
00:05:53.514 --> 00:05:56.563
is something that you talk a lot
about, and it's a really important
00:05:56.584 --> 00:05:58.693
aspect of the TomorrowZone system.
00:05:59.174 --> 00:06:03.293
And this article highlighted that
alignment isn't getting everyone to agree.
00:06:03.444 --> 00:06:05.243
That's not what it means.
00:06:05.744 --> 00:06:09.264
So how can organizations not
just create, but really ensure
00:06:09.264 --> 00:06:13.034
alignment with a team that's fluc-
of fluctuating prickles and goo?
00:06:15.633 --> 00:06:21.633
Deborah: So it is, it's not easy,
um, because, you know, just as a
00:06:21.633 --> 00:06:27.883
reminder, like, the, the, the prickly
mode is where we have sharp edges.
00:06:27.883 --> 00:06:29.163
There's black and white.
00:06:29.194 --> 00:06:31.903
There's precision, certainty.
00:06:32.723 --> 00:06:37.553
And then the gooey mode is
more fluid and, you know, it's,
00:06:37.654 --> 00:06:40.513
it's, it's not, it's not that.
00:06:40.563 --> 00:06:43.154
And, and we're looking
kind of bigger picture.
00:06:43.154 --> 00:06:44.624
We're looking at interconnections.
00:06:44.654 --> 00:06:49.043
And so the challenge is both
of these modes are vital-
00:06:49.194 --> 00:06:49.634
Jennica: Yeah
00:06:49.643 --> 00:06:52.753
… Deborah: to succeed at any
innovation initiative, especially
00:06:52.753 --> 00:06:54.023
if technology's involved.
00:06:54.283 --> 00:06:54.743
Jennica: Mm-hmm.
00:06:54.904 --> 00:06:58.183
Deborah: And so alignment
is not consensus.
00:06:58.913 --> 00:07:04.273
Alignment is when we have shared
understanding of, of why, while making
00:07:04.273 --> 00:07:06.413
room for different ways of seeing it.
00:07:06.423 --> 00:07:06.443
Yeah.
00:07:06.703 --> 00:07:10.763
And that's where it's important to
bring in the different perspectives,
00:07:10.764 --> 00:07:14.733
the different backgrounds, different
expertise so that we're looking at,
00:07:14.783 --> 00:07:19.223
uh, the problem that we want to solve
and why we want to solve it from all
00:07:19.223 --> 00:07:25.063
of the angles that matter, rather
than getting, you know, narrow, um,
00:07:25.104 --> 00:07:27.093
narrow-sighted or shortsighted- Yeah
00:07:27.093 --> 00:07:28.963
in what we're trying to do.
00:07:29.003 --> 00:07:35.504
But then the other piece is that,
you know, alignment Is about shared
00:07:35.504 --> 00:07:39.144
understanding and creating that shared
understanding, but also validating that
00:07:39.144 --> 00:07:41.984
it exists and not assuming that it exists.
00:07:41.984 --> 00:07:47.704
And I think I see this often happen when,
um, when I see often with technicians
00:07:47.704 --> 00:07:49.754
that are in prickly mode thinking.
00:07:50.364 --> 00:07:56.504
So, you know, they're, they're showing all
of the, the features and the functionality
00:07:56.513 --> 00:08:00.684
maybe of, of like some software tool or
something, and they're very technical
00:08:00.684 --> 00:08:05.494
about it, but the people that are
processing it and taking it in might be
00:08:05.494 --> 00:08:10.743
in gooey mode, and they're not thinking in
the same way in terms of black and white.
00:08:10.754 --> 00:08:12.704
They're thinking, "What does
this mean to me, and how is this
00:08:12.713 --> 00:08:13.834
gonna impact me in the future?
00:08:13.834 --> 00:08:18.093
And how do I connect this future
thing that's uncomfortable to how I
00:08:18.094 --> 00:08:21.843
do things now, and what is it gonna
look like?" And, and so then at the
00:08:21.844 --> 00:08:25.123
end of the presentation, you know,
"Hey, does anybody have questions?"
00:08:25.123 --> 00:08:30.014
And they hear crickets, and they, they
mistake the silence to mean, "Oh, I
00:08:30.014 --> 00:08:34.133
did a really great job here," because
everybody's thinking in prickly mode.
00:08:35.293 --> 00:08:35.613
Jennica: Yeah.
00:08:36.063 --> 00:08:37.294
Deborah: And they understand it.
00:08:37.443 --> 00:08:41.764
And so we're assuming that si- the silence
is an assumed alignment, and it's not.
00:08:41.773 --> 00:08:42.683
It's actually a trap.
00:08:43.364 --> 00:08:43.384
Yeah.
00:08:43.394 --> 00:08:50.733
And so I think that, you know, we
can, um, we can go, we can do a lot
00:08:50.743 --> 00:08:55.113
just, just by making sure that we're
having bi-directional conversations
00:08:55.123 --> 00:09:00.113
and that we're validating shared
understanding and alignment rather
00:09:00.114 --> 00:09:02.973
than just assuming it and moving on.
00:09:03.614 --> 00:09:03.974
Jennica: Yeah.
00:09:04.783 --> 00:09:05.333
That's good.
00:09:06.583 --> 00:09:09.343
You know, one of the things that
Richmond points out is that as
00:09:09.364 --> 00:09:14.484
individuals, we shift between
prickly and gooey thinking ourselves.
00:09:15.224 --> 00:09:18.573
And what does this mean for
executive decision-making?
00:09:21.413 --> 00:09:24.514
Deborah: Well, this, this got me
'cause, like, I, I constantly do this.
00:09:24.763 --> 00:09:28.733
I'm constantly shifting between prickly
mode and, and gooey mode thinking-
00:09:28.733 --> 00:09:29.183
Jennica: Yeah
00:09:29.483 --> 00:09:30.364
Deborah: I mean, most days.
00:09:30.713 --> 00:09:33.283
And I bet most leaders are doing
it, too, and don't notice it.
00:09:33.403 --> 00:09:33.863
Yeah.
00:09:33.873 --> 00:09:38.553
So, I mean, I am prickly when it
comes to process and architecture
00:09:38.553 --> 00:09:41.083
and intentionality and strategy.
00:09:41.083 --> 00:09:45.443
I'm gooey, though, when it comes to
culture and energy in the team and
00:09:45.443 --> 00:09:50.564
in the room and, and sometimes I'm
leveraging both modes in the same meeting.
00:09:50.833 --> 00:09:54.414
And I think that, you know, there's
risk when it comes to decision-making
00:09:54.703 --> 00:09:58.893
from one mode without realizing it or
without considering that others might
00:09:58.893 --> 00:10:01.283
be coming from those other modes.
00:10:01.283 --> 00:10:05.143
And this, this sounds like such a
woo-woo and soft thing, but, like, once
00:10:05.143 --> 00:10:10.173
you see it, it can just, you know, make
subtle changes in the types of questions
00:10:10.173 --> 00:10:14.114
that you ask or the way that you might
engage your team in the conversation
00:10:14.114 --> 00:10:15.414
and how you make the decision.
00:10:15.414 --> 00:10:23.212
And, you know, the, the guiding principles
And, and strong facilitation in these
00:10:23.222 --> 00:10:28.612
situations, they, they go a long way to
bridging the gap between this prickly
00:10:28.612 --> 00:10:33.002
and gooey mode and making sure that
we're on the same page, so to speak.
00:10:33.672 --> 00:10:41.862
Um, and so I think that, you know, the,
the challenge is, is recognizing it
00:10:42.302 --> 00:10:47.141
and maybe, you know, asking where might
we be in prickly mode when this moment
00:10:47.141 --> 00:10:49.181
actually calls for gooey mode thinking?
00:10:49.391 --> 00:10:52.542
Um- Yeah … and I think that, you
know, we talk a lot about the messy
00:10:52.542 --> 00:10:58.821
middle of innovation, and that's the
time where it demands both modes.
00:10:59.581 --> 00:11:04.680
You need the rigor to hold
the plan But you also need the
00:11:04.680 --> 00:11:08.380
intuition to read what the team
is actually needing in the moment.
00:11:08.380 --> 00:11:08.719
Yeah.
00:11:08.719 --> 00:11:12.000
Because you're, you're taking
something technical, but you're making
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.269
meaning for people at the same time.
00:11:15.280 --> 00:11:19.569
That's a gap that's tough to
bridge if you don't have your team
00:11:19.569 --> 00:11:21.880
prepared to go through that well.
00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:29.439
And so I think that, you know, when
you, um, when you're not prepared for
00:11:29.439 --> 00:11:34.489
it and all the prickles and the goo
collide, then you end up with an even
00:11:34.489 --> 00:11:38.609
bigger, more expensive mess in the messy
middle, and maybe some unnecessary drama.
00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:43.769
But I think that this, this topic
is so interesting because it kind
00:11:43.770 --> 00:11:48.109
of wakes you up to a different level
of awareness in how you think, but
00:11:48.110 --> 00:11:50.069
also how others might be thinking.
00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:55.199
And as I was thinking about it, I
think it can bring another level of,
00:11:55.239 --> 00:11:59.919
of empathy to the table as you're, as
you're dealing and, and in the past
00:11:59.919 --> 00:12:02.179
where you may have assumed ill intent-
00:12:02.839 --> 00:12:03.319
Jennica: Yeah
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.819
Deborah: on the part of someone else,
you could tell a different story in your
00:12:05.819 --> 00:12:08.849
head about what might be going on, and
that could spark some different types
00:12:08.849 --> 00:12:14.269
of questions and conversations that
can get things moving along positively.
00:12:14.300 --> 00:12:18.490
I was thinking about a situation I'm
advising a team and they're working with
00:12:18.490 --> 00:12:22.850
a, a software partner, and a piece of
the config and development work came
00:12:22.859 --> 00:12:27.359
back and it just didn't look exactly
like this business leader expected.
00:12:28.239 --> 00:12:32.649
And, um, you know, and when I think
about it through this lens, we had the
00:12:32.659 --> 00:12:38.599
prickly mode technician executing exactly
on maybe what was specced, handing it
00:12:38.599 --> 00:12:43.220
back, "Here it is, this is what you
asked for." And then a business leader
00:12:43.220 --> 00:12:44.969
saying, "This is not what I wanted.
00:12:45.869 --> 00:12:50.559
You should just know what I want
because you're in this industry."
00:12:52.819 --> 00:12:54.419
Um, and that's goo thinking.
00:12:54.929 --> 00:12:55.449
Jennica: Yeah.
00:12:55.549 --> 00:12:56.209
Yeah.
00:12:56.260 --> 00:12:58.189
Deborah: It, you know,
it… This is obvious.
00:12:58.229 --> 00:13:02.669
Well, to somebody who's in that technical,
prickly mode thinking, it's not obvious.
00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:02.699
Yeah.
00:13:03.129 --> 00:13:08.109
And so my advice was this is an
opportunity for a conversation.
00:13:08.119 --> 00:13:10.259
There's no ill intent on either side.
00:13:10.409 --> 00:13:10.739
Jennica: Yeah.
00:13:10.790 --> 00:13:15.049
Deborah: I think what you have here is
a mismatch in definitions of what good
00:13:15.049 --> 00:13:19.949
looks like or what success looks like,
and this calls for a conversation.
00:13:20.959 --> 00:13:23.699
And it's a gentle nudge,
"Hey, what happened here?
00:13:24.400 --> 00:13:26.269
This isn't the quality I was looking for.
00:13:27.060 --> 00:13:30.570
Did I miss it in, in what I specified?
00:13:30.579 --> 00:13:31.579
Did you miss it?
00:13:31.579 --> 00:13:34.839
Let's talk it through." It's
not, it's not accusation.
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:35.889
Jennica: Yeah.
00:13:36.010 --> 00:13:38.090
Deborah: You know, it's
just getting clear together.
00:13:38.109 --> 00:13:42.739
Multiply that by the hundreds, maybe even
thousands of times that those situations
00:13:42.739 --> 00:13:44.789
come up across a single initiative.
00:13:45.669 --> 00:13:49.210
And if you can see this and you can
catch it in the moment, you can save
00:13:49.210 --> 00:13:51.350
yourself so much time, money and drama.
00:13:51.969 --> 00:13:52.309
Jennica: Yeah.
00:13:52.829 --> 00:13:54.100
Deborah: It really changes things
00:13:55.214 --> 00:14:00.754
Jennica: There, there was a quote, and I
was trying to find it, um, but the, he,
00:14:00.784 --> 00:14:04.754
he makes the point that sometimes the
argument that you've been having with
00:14:04.764 --> 00:14:08.144
someone else is actually the argument
you've been having with yourself.
00:14:08.223 --> 00:14:08.643
Deborah: Mm.
00:14:09.813 --> 00:14:12.163
Jennica: Because of that
shifting in between, right?
00:14:12.163 --> 00:14:17.274
And, and I was like, man, that is so
powerful as a leader to just take the
00:14:17.284 --> 00:14:22.523
time to, to step back and do a little
bit of self-evaluation and recognize,
00:14:22.853 --> 00:14:25.904
where am I struggling in this?
00:14:25.954 --> 00:14:30.403
Like, where am I having a hard time
finding what the happy medium is
00:14:30.403 --> 00:14:31.964
between the prickly and the goo?
00:14:32.703 --> 00:14:37.573
And am I projecting that onto someone
else when in actuality it's something
00:14:37.574 --> 00:14:40.004
that I'm trying to resolve myself?
00:14:40.083 --> 00:14:44.494
And, you know, as leaders that, man,
we're moving so fast, and there's so
00:14:44.494 --> 00:14:50.763
much coming at us, and r- really just
taking just a pause to, to kind of
00:14:50.763 --> 00:14:52.774
do a little bit of self-evaluation.
00:14:53.003 --> 00:14:56.543
You know, is this an, is this a me problem
that I'm putting onto someone else?
00:14:57.113 --> 00:14:58.633
Um, I don't even want to say problem.
00:14:58.633 --> 00:15:02.013
It's just conflict, I guess, you
know, kind of trying to find that
00:15:02.013 --> 00:15:05.014
resolution, um, because we do.
00:15:05.093 --> 00:15:10.604
And, and there can be times where both
the prickly and the goo are vital, and how
00:15:10.604 --> 00:15:12.973
do you, how do you bring them together?
00:15:12.973 --> 00:15:16.024
And when we do bring them together,
that's when we have something beautiful,
00:15:16.953 --> 00:15:19.754
and that takes a little bit of, of work.
00:15:19.843 --> 00:15:20.503
So, um-
00:15:20.633 --> 00:15:21.013
Deborah: Yeah.
00:15:21.223 --> 00:15:22.174
It takes intentionality.
00:15:22.303 --> 00:15:22.723
Jennica: Yeah.
00:15:22.794 --> 00:15:23.373
It does.
00:15:23.593 --> 00:15:24.254
It does.
00:15:24.833 --> 00:15:27.573
So where do you see this framework
having the greatest implications
00:15:27.574 --> 00:15:29.443
for the future of organizations?
00:15:29.993 --> 00:15:33.284
Deborah: I mean, I don't know if
this framework, like- will have
00:15:33.284 --> 00:15:35.204
massive impact for organizations.
00:15:35.254 --> 00:15:38.544
Um, I, but I, I see value in it.
00:15:38.754 --> 00:15:41.324
I mean, it's just an article
that I, I came across.
00:15:41.324 --> 00:15:46.373
I'm like, ah, that is really
unique and interesting lens and
00:15:46.373 --> 00:15:47.884
a different level of awareness-
00:15:47.964 --> 00:15:48.493
Jennica: Mm-hmm
00:15:48.644 --> 00:15:53.214
… Deborah: that could really help teams that
are going through these tough situations.
00:15:53.814 --> 00:15:57.164
And, and we know that not
everybody thinks exactly the same.
00:15:57.743 --> 00:16:01.704
And, and, and so I think it's a,
it's an interesting tool that, to
00:16:01.704 --> 00:16:03.853
have in your toolkit as a leader.
00:16:04.003 --> 00:16:08.003
If you're leading innovation, if you're,
if you're accountable for the success of
00:16:08.003 --> 00:16:11.243
an innovation initiative, wherever you
are, if you're an individual contributor
00:16:11.243 --> 00:16:14.763
on the team, whatever level you're
playing from, I think that this is a
00:16:14.764 --> 00:16:16.123
framework that could really help you.
00:16:16.123 --> 00:16:20.324
But then I also was thinking
about it related to the, the five
00:16:20.324 --> 00:16:23.173
shifts of the TomorrowZone System
that I wrote about in my book.
00:16:23.794 --> 00:16:27.503
You know, the organizations that are
gonna be able to thrive for the future
00:16:27.503 --> 00:16:32.193
and take on continuous transformation
are embracing and living the five
00:16:32.193 --> 00:16:36.153
shifts that I talk about: align,
imagine, co-create, empower and evolve.
00:16:36.903 --> 00:16:41.993
But if we, if we zoom into the imagine
shift, imagine is deeply gooey.
00:16:43.083 --> 00:16:43.204
It is.
00:16:43.723 --> 00:16:48.513
And you have to be willing to not
know, to be able to hold ambiguity,
00:16:48.513 --> 00:16:50.533
to ask impossible questions.
00:16:51.473 --> 00:16:56.113
But executing on what you imagine,
that requires the prickly discipline
00:16:56.473 --> 00:16:58.703
of guiding principles, of role clarity.
00:16:58.894 --> 00:16:59.983
You gotta have both.
00:16:59.983 --> 00:17:00.153
Yeah.
00:17:00.153 --> 00:17:00.643
Jennica: Yeah.
00:17:00.703 --> 00:17:05.260
Deborah: But you sequence them
with intention And, and it's not
00:17:05.260 --> 00:17:07.180
that one is better than the other.
00:17:07.630 --> 00:17:11.070
W- we need both to, to make this happen.
00:17:11.580 --> 00:17:16.940
And so I think that maybe, maybe the, the
biggest implication to think about for,
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:21.330
for leaders that are, are taking on and
shaping the future is that when it comes
00:17:21.330 --> 00:17:23.659
to this framework, we need to be bimodal.
00:17:23.719 --> 00:17:29.229
We need to be fluent in both modes, and
recognize and, and, and leverage this
00:17:29.260 --> 00:17:33.860
to kind of shift the types of questions
or interactions that we're having, and,
00:17:33.860 --> 00:17:38.800
and just get skilled at understanding
which one the moment is asking for
00:17:38.810 --> 00:17:40.820
based on the context and the situation.
00:17:41.489 --> 00:17:42.080
Jennica: That's good.
00:17:43.489 --> 00:17:48.149
Towards the end of the article, Richmond
makes the observation that really expands
00:17:48.149 --> 00:17:49.999
the conversation, and that's about AI.
00:17:50.040 --> 00:17:55.290
And he, he makes the point that AI is
remarkably good at prickly thinking, and
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.499
really there's not so much with the goo.
00:17:58.049 --> 00:18:02.619
And that, you know, and he talks about
how sometimes the, the struggle that
00:18:02.619 --> 00:18:06.650
we have with AI is we're- we want
it to make the inferences, we want
00:18:06.650 --> 00:18:08.540
it to be gooey, and it's simply not.
00:18:08.549 --> 00:18:10.709
It's the most prickly thing out there.
00:18:11.479 --> 00:18:12.489
So if that's true- Very literal.
00:18:13.470 --> 00:18:14.340
Very literal.
00:18:15.419 --> 00:18:20.860
So, you know, if that's true, what
becomes even more valuable about how
00:18:20.869 --> 00:18:22.609
we as humans collaborate with AI?
00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:26.439
Deborah: So this kind of hit me hard.
00:18:26.439 --> 00:18:31.219
I've, I've experienced this directly in
my collaboration with AI over the years.
00:18:31.229 --> 00:18:37.369
But, but recently I've, um, I've come up
with some workarounds to deal with this.
00:18:37.419 --> 00:18:41.340
But also lately I've been seeing a lot
of people are discovering the prickly
00:18:41.340 --> 00:18:44.299
nature of AI and laughing at it.
00:18:45.159 --> 00:18:45.439
Yeah.
00:18:45.439 --> 00:18:49.149
And it's also amplifying just what makes
us special as humans, which I think is
00:18:49.150 --> 00:18:52.969
kind of fun, but, like, there's some
really funny meme videos out there I
00:18:52.970 --> 00:18:56.779
was gonna share- … but I don't have
permission to share them on this show.
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:01.340
But I saw one just yesterday that I was
trying to share with my husband, but
00:19:01.340 --> 00:19:03.619
I'm like, he's not really deep into AI.
00:19:04.569 --> 00:19:07.919
Like, it's, it's one of those, like,
if you know, you know kind of things.
00:19:07.919 --> 00:19:08.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:15.059
But, but it was a guy, um, talking
to, um, a duplicate image of himself
00:19:15.090 --> 00:19:19.599
behaving as if it were the AI, and, and
he's trying to split a sandwich in half.
00:19:19.629 --> 00:19:24.659
Now, when we say that, in our minds,
we imagine the, the sandwich, imagine
00:19:24.659 --> 00:19:28.439
like a submarine sandwich, and
you're gonna chop it in half in the
00:19:28.450 --> 00:19:33.479
middle, halfway, um, you know, in
the- Yeah … length of that thing.
00:19:33.709 --> 00:19:35.179
But the AI doesn't know that.
00:19:36.688 --> 00:19:38.958
Has no context of what
it means to be human.
00:19:39.418 --> 00:19:39.658
Jennica: Yeah.
00:19:39.658 --> 00:19:42.198
Deborah: Or that when we say
we want to cut the sandwich in
00:19:42.198 --> 00:19:45.898
half, that that's what we mean.
00:19:46.527 --> 00:19:50.358
And so the, you know, he was having
the conversation with the AI, "Cut
00:19:50.358 --> 00:19:52.997
the sandwich in half." And the AI was
like, "Yes, I will cut the sandwich
00:19:52.998 --> 00:19:56.858
in half." And it was like, you know,
splitting it in the middle where all
00:19:56.858 --> 00:19:58.317
of the lettuce and the meat are- Yeah.
00:19:58.318 --> 00:19:59.138
… and stuff.
00:19:59.138 --> 00:20:01.178
Like that, right there,
I'm cutting it in half.
00:20:01.178 --> 00:20:01.208
Sure.
00:20:01.208 --> 00:20:01.568
It's in half.
00:20:01.747 --> 00:20:02.768
"No, not like that.
00:20:02.777 --> 00:20:06.847
Do it better." "Okay, yes." And then
it like turned it around, and it's
00:20:06.847 --> 00:20:08.448
like doing all these crazy things.
00:20:08.448 --> 00:20:09.297
But, you know
00:20:11.380 --> 00:20:16.970
That's a really great illustration
of the difference, and, and I, I run
00:20:16.970 --> 00:20:20.290
into this in my own collaborations
with AI, where, uh, you know, I
00:20:20.390 --> 00:20:23.240
wanna, I wanna get a point across.
00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.339
And one of the things I'm learning
is you can leverage AI to help sort
00:20:27.340 --> 00:20:31.019
out your gooey thinking, to make
it prickly so that it works in AI.
00:20:31.709 --> 00:20:33.730
And so I even just did this this morning.
00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:37.369
Um, one of the workarounds that
I found, I'll, I often will pit
00:20:37.449 --> 00:20:42.200
Claude against ChatGPT, um, for fun.
00:20:42.609 --> 00:20:44.810
And, you know- … they're
just, they're just AIs.
00:20:44.810 --> 00:20:46.069
It's just machine intelligence.
00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:46.100
Yeah.
00:20:46.109 --> 00:20:48.149
Maybe it doesn't even know I'm
doing it, but I don't care.
00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:51.600
So one of the workarounds that
I've found is I'll, I'll, I'll
00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:57.690
ask one AI to build the prickly
instructions based on my gooey spoken
00:20:57.690 --> 00:21:00.119
description of what I want to achieve.
00:21:00.909 --> 00:21:04.419
And then I take those instructions
from that AI and I give it to the
00:21:04.449 --> 00:21:08.899
other AI, and I can get pretty darn
close to what I want on the first try.
00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.919
But I've found that I need to
leverage AI as a goo translator
00:21:14.589 --> 00:21:18.429
to get the prickly instructions so
that I can get the results I want.
00:21:18.910 --> 00:21:19.400
Jennica: Yeah.
00:21:19.529 --> 00:21:22.960
Deborah: Okay, without context,
that, that whole statement just
00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:24.869
sounded really funny- … to me.
00:21:26.050 --> 00:21:26.570
Anyway.
00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:27.869
Jennica: But I know what you mean.
00:21:27.870 --> 00:21:29.570
You're, yeah.
00:21:29.679 --> 00:21:30.119
Deborah: Yeah.
00:21:30.260 --> 00:21:32.409
Jennica: You're s- you're sort
of really like, like, you know,
00:21:32.489 --> 00:21:34.139
just dumping it all in one.
00:21:34.300 --> 00:21:34.589
Deborah: Mm-hmm.
00:21:34.589 --> 00:21:36.409
Jennica: Tell me what I need, and
then you're- Yeah … taking those
00:21:36.409 --> 00:21:38.219
instructions and actually feeding it into
00:21:38.959 --> 00:21:39.039
Deborah: the
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:39.099
Jennica: other one.
00:21:39.099 --> 00:21:39.199
Yeah.
00:21:39.209 --> 00:21:40.930
Deborah: So… And it's like, like,
we can do that with humans really
00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:44.489
easy, 'cause if I, like, I do this
to you, Jennica, all the time.
00:21:44.589 --> 00:21:46.709
"This is what I wanna do, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, stream
00:21:46.709 --> 00:21:47.789
of consciousness," whatever.
00:21:48.139 --> 00:21:53.090
And then Jennica can, like, through
her own special magic, like, translate
00:21:53.090 --> 00:21:57.819
that into project plans and timelines
and roadmaps and, and tasks and
00:21:57.830 --> 00:21:59.279
priorities and all the other things.
00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:03.479
And so I think that, you know,
this, this article kind of nails it.
00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:09.829
Like, our, our teams, our organizations
are often running on invisible goo,
00:22:10.609 --> 00:22:14.639
where we're expecting something
more prickly or vice versa.
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.280
And we talk a lot at TomorrowZone, and
actually, you started bringing this
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.239
up and reinforcing it continually.
00:22:21.239 --> 00:22:25.689
We need to make the implicit explicit,
and that is one of the things that we
00:22:25.689 --> 00:22:31.259
run into when we're collaborating with
an AI, because it's very literal and
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:35.009
it doesn't, you know… It does have an
inference engine, but it doesn't, like,
00:22:35.019 --> 00:22:37.269
infer the same way we would as humans.
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:40.170
It's, it's doing that based
on how it's been trained and
00:22:40.170 --> 00:22:41.180
what it's been trained on.
00:22:41.180 --> 00:22:45.900
And so, you know, I think
that's… It's just, it's, it's
00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:47.749
just another level of awareness.
00:22:47.840 --> 00:22:52.039
You know, I hear this, um, all the
time when I'm working with teams.
00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:56.618
"Well, they should just know."
And it's not that way with AI.
00:22:56.618 --> 00:22:57.148
No.
00:22:58.447 --> 00:23:02.768
Jennica: Well, you know, when you think
about, uh, just humans being gooey and
00:23:02.768 --> 00:23:06.838
kind of that innate being able to feel
someone else out, and then you think
00:23:06.848 --> 00:23:10.148
about some of the huge disasters that
we've had where companies have just
00:23:10.148 --> 00:23:16.098
unilaterally replaced humans with bots,
and in areas like customer service
00:23:16.118 --> 00:23:20.298
where you have people that are just
oozing emotion that are coming, right?
00:23:20.757 --> 00:23:23.587
And there's no goo, that
they're being met with zero goo.
00:23:23.587 --> 00:23:27.617
They're just being met with
prickles, and it's a nightmare.
00:23:28.017 --> 00:23:30.118
I mean, it's the worst
possible experience.
00:23:30.118 --> 00:23:35.727
And so it's… I th- I loved that he
pointed that out, that we innately as
00:23:35.728 --> 00:23:39.578
humans, I mean, even the prickliest
person has some goo in them, right?
00:23:39.587 --> 00:23:40.187
We know how to
00:23:40.187 --> 00:23:41.187
Deborah: deal with the goo, yeah.
00:23:41.187 --> 00:23:41.627
I mean, even-
00:23:41.627 --> 00:23:42.007
Jennica: Yeah
00:23:42.007 --> 00:23:43.477
… Deborah: Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory-
00:23:43.707 --> 00:23:45.277
Jennica: Yeah, he, he got there
00:23:45.278 --> 00:23:46.118
… Deborah: figured out how to deal with goo.
00:23:46.957 --> 00:23:47.217
Jennica: Yeah.
00:23:47.217 --> 00:23:49.977
Deborah: I mean, he's a really
great example of prickly thinking.
00:23:50.037 --> 00:23:51.357
Jennica: Yeah, exactly.
00:23:51.607 --> 00:23:51.977
But he got
00:23:52.098 --> 00:23:52.308
Deborah: there.
00:23:52.317 --> 00:23:54.457
But even he switched
modes from time to time.
00:23:54.467 --> 00:23:54.917
Jennica: Yeah.
00:23:55.138 --> 00:23:55.658
Yeah.
00:23:55.667 --> 00:23:55.707
You know?
00:23:55.717 --> 00:24:00.706
And so- Just recognizing that the
bot's not gonna do it, and that's fine.
00:24:00.706 --> 00:24:01.586
It's not what it's made for.
00:24:01.676 --> 00:24:01.916
Yeah.
00:24:02.056 --> 00:24:03.186
That's why we still need humans, right?
00:24:03.456 --> 00:24:03.656
So… Well,
00:24:03.656 --> 00:24:05.216
Deborah: yeah, and I think that
that's, like, the whole point
00:24:05.216 --> 00:24:06.796
of this article, you know.
00:24:07.016 --> 00:24:10.856
It's… Let's get back to the human side
of in- innovation and really understand
00:24:10.856 --> 00:24:15.316
what we're working with, whether it's
with other humans or, or with AI.
00:24:15.316 --> 00:24:18.276
There's a difference when we're
coming at it from a, a prickly
00:24:18.276 --> 00:24:22.565
mode or a goo mode, and it's just
a different level of awareness and
00:24:22.565 --> 00:24:24.645
a, and an interesting new lens.
00:24:24.806 --> 00:24:27.506
So I think this is- Mm … one I'll
come back to from time to time.
00:24:28.035 --> 00:24:28.835
Jennica: Absolutely.
00:24:28.896 --> 00:24:32.226
And, you know, one of the reasons
that this framework stayed with us was
00:24:32.236 --> 00:24:34.116
because it shifts that conversation.
00:24:34.116 --> 00:24:35.465
It gives us new language.
00:24:35.955 --> 00:24:39.105
And instead of asking how we get
everyone to think the same way,
00:24:39.125 --> 00:24:42.506
we begin asking how organizations
intentionally benefit from the different
00:24:42.515 --> 00:24:46.266
ways of making sense of complexity,
because that distinction matters.
00:24:46.815 --> 00:24:50.065
Future-ready organizations won't
succeed because they eliminate
00:24:50.065 --> 00:24:51.256
differences in thinking.
00:24:51.295 --> 00:24:54.995
They'll succeed because they create
clarity while making space for
00:24:54.995 --> 00:24:59.375
multiple cognitive approaches to
inform better strategic decisions.
00:24:59.986 --> 00:25:04.156
And as AI continues becoming part of,
part of how organizations operate,
00:25:04.306 --> 00:25:06.045
that becomes even more important.
00:25:06.556 --> 00:25:10.966
Technology contributes extraordinary
capability, but humans can
00:25:10.966 --> 00:25:12.285
contribute, contribute…
00:25:12.375 --> 00:25:17.086
can continue contributing context,
discernment, meaning, and imagination.
00:25:17.105 --> 00:25:20.565
And perhaps the opportunity isn't
choosing between prickles and goo.
00:25:20.956 --> 00:25:25.616
It's intentionally designing organizations
that know when each creates value.
00:25:26.215 --> 00:25:30.485
So as you leave today's conversation,
consider this: How is your organization
00:25:30.565 --> 00:25:34.866
making sense of complexity, and
where might a different perspective
00:25:34.986 --> 00:25:36.836
unlock new possibilities?
00:25:37.245 --> 00:25:40.345
And if this conversation resonates
with you, check out Deb's
00:25:40.395 --> 00:25:42.055
book, Enter the Tomorrow Zone.
00:25:42.115 --> 00:25:46.925
It's now available on Amazon
and an audiobook on Audible.com.
00:25:47.425 --> 00:25:50.825
And if you see yourself in it, book a
call with us, because we would love to
00:25:50.825 --> 00:25:52.405
explore shaping the future with you.
00:25:52.776 --> 00:25:55.675
As always, we love it when you
like and subscribe and share
00:25:55.675 --> 00:25:56.945
our episodes with a friend.
00:25:57.236 --> 00:25:58.155
Thank you for tuning in.
00:25:58.365 --> 00:26:01.386
Until next time, stay curious and
choose to make awesome happen.
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:10.005 --> 00:00:12.376
Deborah: Welcome to the
TomorrowZone Catalyst podcast.
00:00:12.386 --> 00:00:14.015
I'm your host, Deborah Reuben.
00:00:14.796 --> 00:00:19.815
The more complex our world becomes,
the more important it is to understand
00:00:19.846 --> 00:00:21.286
how are we making sense of it?
00:00:22.375 --> 00:00:27.875
Every day, organizations are navigating
uncertainty, integrating AI, responding
00:00:28.156 --> 00:00:32.185
to shifting markets, making decisions
that don't always have obvious answers.
00:00:32.616 --> 00:00:37.265
Yet even when people are looking
at the same information, they don't
00:00:37.366 --> 00:00:40.705
always arrive at the same conclusions.
00:00:41.476 --> 00:00:42.115
Why is that?
00:00:43.135 --> 00:00:48.355
So recently, Jennica and I came across
this article that gave us a simple
00:00:48.355 --> 00:00:54.096
but surprisingly powerful framework
For thinking about that question.
00:00:54.586 --> 00:00:58.466
And as we talked about it, we
realized its implications reach
00:00:58.496 --> 00:01:00.906
far beyond individual perspectives.
00:01:01.856 --> 00:01:05.476
It also has something to teach us
about how innovation and strategic
00:01:05.476 --> 00:01:10.956
decision-making and organizational
clarity, and how we design teams
00:01:11.126 --> 00:01:12.855
that are ready for what's next.
00:01:13.655 --> 00:01:19.326
So joining me today is TomorrowZone's
director of operations, Jennica Burgh.
00:01:19.326 --> 00:01:22.266
Jennica has an incredible ability
to uncover ideas that challenge
00:01:22.266 --> 00:01:26.975
conventional thinking while revealing
practical implications for organizations
00:01:26.976 --> 00:01:28.445
that are navigating change.
00:01:28.456 --> 00:01:30.596
Jennica, welcome to the show.
00:01:30.875 --> 00:01:31.666
Jennica: Thank you.
00:01:31.686 --> 00:01:33.676
I'm excited about this conversation.
00:01:33.765 --> 00:01:34.926
Deborah: Yeah, let's dive in.
00:01:35.066 --> 00:01:35.476
Jennica: Yeah.
00:01:35.476 --> 00:01:39.586
So I'm gonna share my screen just so
that you can… the audience here can
00:01:39.625 --> 00:01:41.716
see the article that we're talking about.
00:01:42.125 --> 00:01:46.475
And the article that we're discussing
is called Prickles and Goo, which is
00:01:46.475 --> 00:01:48.425
just… And I love this picture of- Yeah,
00:01:48.425 --> 00:01:48.835
Deborah: it's actually-
00:01:48.835 --> 00:01:49.015
the prickly and the goo … the
00:01:49.015 --> 00:01:49.265
Jennica: picture
00:01:49.335 --> 00:01:50.205
Deborah: caught my attention.
00:01:50.206 --> 00:01:50.426
Yeah.
00:01:51.066 --> 00:01:53.135
So yeah, good job to
the author who did that.
00:01:53.535 --> 00:01:54.015
Jennica: Yeah.
00:01:54.596 --> 00:01:56.155
And the author is Bill Richmond.
00:01:56.165 --> 00:01:59.215
And we will include a link to
this article in the show notes
00:01:59.255 --> 00:02:02.215
like we've done with previous ones
if you wanna read it yourself.
00:02:02.636 --> 00:02:05.366
So I'm just gonna give a brief
kind of summary of this article
00:02:05.366 --> 00:02:07.576
so that our audience knows
what we're talking about here.
00:02:07.935 --> 00:02:11.465
So drawing on the ideas of
philosopher Alan Watts, Richmond
00:02:11.465 --> 00:02:14.695
describes two different ways humans
tend to make sense of the world.
00:02:15.066 --> 00:02:18.946
Prickly thinking gravitates toward
precision, structure, categories,
00:02:18.946 --> 00:02:24.675
boundaries, explicit logic, and gooey
thinking notices relationships, patterns,
00:02:24.706 --> 00:02:27.566
context, intuition, meaning, vibe.
00:02:28.265 --> 00:02:31.875
And what I appreciated most is that
this isn't a personality assessment.
00:02:31.926 --> 00:02:35.645
This article argues that every one
of us moves between these ways of
00:02:35.655 --> 00:02:37.505
thinking, depending on the situation.
00:02:37.985 --> 00:02:40.335
Sometimes we're looking for
certainty and definition, and
00:02:40.355 --> 00:02:43.535
other times we're navigating
ambiguity and discovering meaning.
00:02:44.545 --> 00:02:46.475
You know, and as Deb and I were
talking about this article, we
00:02:46.475 --> 00:02:49.765
realized the bigger opportunity
wasn't just understanding people,
00:02:49.765 --> 00:02:52.135
it's also understanding organizations.
00:02:52.545 --> 00:02:56.445
How do these different cognitive
approaches influence decision-making?
00:02:56.515 --> 00:02:58.326
How do they shape innovation?
00:02:58.335 --> 00:03:00.725
What do they reveal about
organizational clarity?
00:03:01.055 --> 00:03:05.166
And perhaps most interesting, what
happens when AI enters the picture as an
00:03:05.166 --> 00:03:07.865
incredibly capable, prickly collaborator?
00:03:08.466 --> 00:03:11.446
And so that's the conversation
that we're gonna explore today.
00:03:12.674 --> 00:03:14.264
Deborah: I love this so much.
00:03:14.514 --> 00:03:14.954
Jennica: I know.
00:03:15.814 --> 00:03:18.714
Well, you are the one that found this,
and you were really excited about it.
00:03:18.724 --> 00:03:22.084
So what resonated with you about
this framework, and why do you think
00:03:22.084 --> 00:03:25.544
this language feels so useful for
organizations that are navigating
00:03:25.553 --> 00:03:27.424
continuing increasing complexity?
00:03:27.754 --> 00:03:28.394
Deborah: Yeah.
00:03:28.394 --> 00:03:33.443
Well, as I was reading this article,
I was just like, "Oh my gosh, I see
00:03:33.443 --> 00:03:36.583
this all the time." And just like
the ar- the author said, like once
00:03:36.584 --> 00:03:38.793
you see it, you can't unsee it.
00:03:38.863 --> 00:03:39.314
Mm-hmm.
00:03:39.314 --> 00:03:43.294
You see the pattern all over the place,
and it, it just gave words to something
00:03:43.294 --> 00:03:47.953
that I've been observing as I'm working
with teams that are cross-functional,
00:03:47.953 --> 00:03:50.914
and they're coming from so many
different perspectives, and they're,
00:03:50.953 --> 00:03:53.834
with the best intentions, trying to
work together to make awesome happen.
00:03:53.834 --> 00:03:57.084
But, um, you know, they're
still running into friction.
00:03:57.084 --> 00:04:02.663
And so the one thing I loved about
it is that it's not, like you said,
00:04:02.663 --> 00:04:04.413
it's not a personality assessment.
00:04:04.413 --> 00:04:04.913
Jennica: Yeah.
00:04:05.584 --> 00:04:09.823
Deborah: It's modes of thinking
that we continually move
00:04:09.823 --> 00:04:11.984
between and don't even notice.
00:04:12.793 --> 00:04:16.604
And, and I think that, you know,
when I read it, I recognized it,
00:04:16.604 --> 00:04:22.764
and I see so much prickly and
gooey situations happening in every
00:04:22.773 --> 00:04:27.244
innovation initiative and every software
implementation I've ever been a part of.
00:04:27.874 --> 00:04:32.373
It's like this invisible source of
just so much friction, but once you
00:04:32.373 --> 00:04:36.023
c- once you see and understand what's
happening, you can do something about it.
00:04:36.543 --> 00:04:36.833
Jennica: Yeah.
00:04:36.834 --> 00:04:38.324
Deborah: And also, it's a really fun name.
00:04:38.503 --> 00:04:38.954
Prickles- It
00:04:38.954 --> 00:04:39.543
Jennica: is … and goo.
00:04:39.543 --> 00:04:39.703
Prickles
00:04:39.703 --> 00:04:40.433
Deborah: and goo.
00:04:41.933 --> 00:04:45.483
Um, and so I just think that
it's a really fun way to create a
00:04:45.484 --> 00:04:47.013
different level of awareness- Yeah
00:04:47.444 --> 00:04:48.673
for how we work together.
00:04:48.673 --> 00:04:53.793
And in my book, Enter the TomorrowZone, I
talk about how often, uh, transformation
00:04:53.793 --> 00:04:59.073
fails when we don't have shared language
in cross-functional teams, and I think
00:04:59.073 --> 00:05:02.233
this gives us a, a shared language
to understand the modes of thinking
00:05:02.233 --> 00:05:07.083
that we might be bouncing between-
Yeah … without realizing it and gives
00:05:07.084 --> 00:05:12.904
us- permission to, to just pause for a
moment and say, "You know, I think we
00:05:12.904 --> 00:05:17.414
may be in different thinking modes right
now," instead of just arguing or assuming
00:05:17.654 --> 00:05:19.964
bad intent on the part of someone else.
00:05:20.263 --> 00:05:20.863
Jennica: Yeah.
00:05:20.973 --> 00:05:25.724
And you know, it, I, I love that the
artic- the author, he makes a point that
00:05:25.734 --> 00:05:29.733
when we're in one mode, it's very easy to
look at someone in the other mode and go,
00:05:29.764 --> 00:05:37.313
"They're wrong." When in reality, both
are super important and both bring value.
00:05:37.633 --> 00:05:41.603
And just, a- again, having that
shared language of recognizing that,
00:05:41.604 --> 00:05:44.853
okay, the prickles are important
to me right now, but the goos are
00:05:44.854 --> 00:05:46.474
important to you, and how can…
00:05:46.483 --> 00:05:48.133
You know, they, they're both important.
00:05:48.163 --> 00:05:50.893
So you know, and this
moves into alignment.
00:05:50.904 --> 00:05:53.513
You know, you mentioned your book,
Enter the TomorrowZone, and alignment
00:05:53.514 --> 00:05:56.563
is something that you talk a lot
about, and it's a really important
00:05:56.584 --> 00:05:58.693
aspect of the TomorrowZone system.
00:05:59.174 --> 00:06:03.293
And this article highlighted that
alignment isn't getting everyone to agree.
00:06:03.444 --> 00:06:05.243
That's not what it means.
00:06:05.744 --> 00:06:09.264
So how can organizations not
just create, but really ensure
00:06:09.264 --> 00:06:13.034
alignment with a team that's fluc-
of fluctuating prickles and goo?
00:06:15.633 --> 00:06:21.633
Deborah: So it is, it's not easy,
um, because, you know, just as a
00:06:21.633 --> 00:06:27.883
reminder, like, the, the, the prickly
mode is where we have sharp edges.
00:06:27.883 --> 00:06:29.163
There's black and white.
00:06:29.194 --> 00:06:31.903
There's precision, certainty.
00:06:32.723 --> 00:06:37.553
And then the gooey mode is
more fluid and, you know, it's,
00:06:37.654 --> 00:06:40.513
it's, it's not, it's not that.
00:06:40.563 --> 00:06:43.154
And, and we're looking
kind of bigger picture.
00:06:43.154 --> 00:06:44.624
We're looking at interconnections.
00:06:44.654 --> 00:06:49.043
And so the challenge is both
of these modes are vital-
00:06:49.194 --> 00:06:49.634
Jennica: Yeah
00:06:49.643 --> 00:06:52.753
… Deborah: to succeed at any
innovation initiative, especially
00:06:52.753 --> 00:06:54.023
if technology's involved.
00:06:54.283 --> 00:06:54.743
Jennica: Mm-hmm.
00:06:54.904 --> 00:06:58.183
Deborah: And so alignment
is not consensus.
00:06:58.913 --> 00:07:04.273
Alignment is when we have shared
understanding of, of why, while making
00:07:04.273 --> 00:07:06.413
room for different ways of seeing it.
00:07:06.423 --> 00:07:06.443
Yeah.
00:07:06.703 --> 00:07:10.763
And that's where it's important to
bring in the different perspectives,
00:07:10.764 --> 00:07:14.733
the different backgrounds, different
expertise so that we're looking at,
00:07:14.783 --> 00:07:19.223
uh, the problem that we want to solve
and why we want to solve it from all
00:07:19.223 --> 00:07:25.063
of the angles that matter, rather
than getting, you know, narrow, um,
00:07:25.104 --> 00:07:27.093
narrow-sighted or shortsighted- Yeah
00:07:27.093 --> 00:07:28.963
in what we're trying to do.
00:07:29.003 --> 00:07:35.504
But then the other piece is that,
you know, alignment Is about shared
00:07:35.504 --> 00:07:39.144
understanding and creating that shared
understanding, but also validating that
00:07:39.144 --> 00:07:41.984
it exists and not assuming that it exists.
00:07:41.984 --> 00:07:47.704
And I think I see this often happen when,
um, when I see often with technicians
00:07:47.704 --> 00:07:49.754
that are in prickly mode thinking.
00:07:50.364 --> 00:07:56.504
So, you know, they're, they're showing all
of the, the features and the functionality
00:07:56.513 --> 00:08:00.684
maybe of, of like some software tool or
something, and they're very technical
00:08:00.684 --> 00:08:05.494
about it, but the people that are
processing it and taking it in might be
00:08:05.494 --> 00:08:10.743
in gooey mode, and they're not thinking in
the same way in terms of black and white.
00:08:10.754 --> 00:08:12.704
They're thinking, "What does
this mean to me, and how is this
00:08:12.713 --> 00:08:13.834
gonna impact me in the future?
00:08:13.834 --> 00:08:18.093
And how do I connect this future
thing that's uncomfortable to how I
00:08:18.094 --> 00:08:21.843
do things now, and what is it gonna
look like?" And, and so then at the
00:08:21.844 --> 00:08:25.123
end of the presentation, you know,
"Hey, does anybody have questions?"
00:08:25.123 --> 00:08:30.014
And they hear crickets, and they, they
mistake the silence to mean, "Oh, I
00:08:30.014 --> 00:08:34.133
did a really great job here," because
everybody's thinking in prickly mode.
00:08:35.293 --> 00:08:35.613
Jennica: Yeah.
00:08:36.063 --> 00:08:37.294
Deborah: And they understand it.
00:08:37.443 --> 00:08:41.764
And so we're assuming that si- the silence
is an assumed alignment, and it's not.
00:08:41.773 --> 00:08:42.683
It's actually a trap.
00:08:43.364 --> 00:08:43.384
Yeah.
00:08:43.394 --> 00:08:50.733
And so I think that, you know, we
can, um, we can go, we can do a lot
00:08:50.743 --> 00:08:55.113
just, just by making sure that we're
having bi-directional conversations
00:08:55.123 --> 00:09:00.113
and that we're validating shared
understanding and alignment rather
00:09:00.114 --> 00:09:02.973
than just assuming it and moving on.
00:09:03.614 --> 00:09:03.974
Jennica: Yeah.
00:09:04.783 --> 00:09:05.333
That's good.
00:09:06.583 --> 00:09:09.343
You know, one of the things that
Richmond points out is that as
00:09:09.364 --> 00:09:14.484
individuals, we shift between
prickly and gooey thinking ourselves.
00:09:15.224 --> 00:09:18.573
And what does this mean for
executive decision-making?
00:09:21.413 --> 00:09:24.514
Deborah: Well, this, this got me
'cause, like, I, I constantly do this.
00:09:24.763 --> 00:09:28.733
I'm constantly shifting between prickly
mode and, and gooey mode thinking-
00:09:28.733 --> 00:09:29.183
Jennica: Yeah
00:09:29.483 --> 00:09:30.364
Deborah: I mean, most days.
00:09:30.713 --> 00:09:33.283
And I bet most leaders are doing
it, too, and don't notice it.
00:09:33.403 --> 00:09:33.863
Yeah.
00:09:33.873 --> 00:09:38.553
So, I mean, I am prickly when it
comes to process and architecture
00:09:38.553 --> 00:09:41.083
and intentionality and strategy.
00:09:41.083 --> 00:09:45.443
I'm gooey, though, when it comes to
culture and energy in the team and
00:09:45.443 --> 00:09:50.564
in the room and, and sometimes I'm
leveraging both modes in the same meeting.
00:09:50.833 --> 00:09:54.414
And I think that, you know, there's
risk when it comes to decision-making
00:09:54.703 --> 00:09:58.893
from one mode without realizing it or
without considering that others might
00:09:58.893 --> 00:10:01.283
be coming from those other modes.
00:10:01.283 --> 00:10:05.143
And this, this sounds like such a
woo-woo and soft thing, but, like, once
00:10:05.143 --> 00:10:10.173
you see it, it can just, you know, make
subtle changes in the types of questions
00:10:10.173 --> 00:10:14.114
that you ask or the way that you might
engage your team in the conversation
00:10:14.114 --> 00:10:15.414
and how you make the decision.
00:10:15.414 --> 00:10:23.212
And, you know, the, the guiding principles
And, and strong facilitation in these
00:10:23.222 --> 00:10:28.612
situations, they, they go a long way to
bridging the gap between this prickly
00:10:28.612 --> 00:10:33.002
and gooey mode and making sure that
we're on the same page, so to speak.
00:10:33.672 --> 00:10:41.862
Um, and so I think that, you know, the,
the challenge is, is recognizing it
00:10:42.302 --> 00:10:47.141
and maybe, you know, asking where might
we be in prickly mode when this moment
00:10:47.141 --> 00:10:49.181
actually calls for gooey mode thinking?
00:10:49.391 --> 00:10:52.542
Um- Yeah … and I think that, you
know, we talk a lot about the messy
00:10:52.542 --> 00:10:58.821
middle of innovation, and that's the
time where it demands both modes.
00:10:59.581 --> 00:11:04.680
You need the rigor to hold
the plan But you also need the
00:11:04.680 --> 00:11:08.380
intuition to read what the team
is actually needing in the moment.
00:11:08.380 --> 00:11:08.719
Yeah.
00:11:08.719 --> 00:11:12.000
Because you're, you're taking
something technical, but you're making
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.269
meaning for people at the same time.
00:11:15.280 --> 00:11:19.569
That's a gap that's tough to
bridge if you don't have your team
00:11:19.569 --> 00:11:21.880
prepared to go through that well.
00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:29.439
And so I think that, you know, when
you, um, when you're not prepared for
00:11:29.439 --> 00:11:34.489
it and all the prickles and the goo
collide, then you end up with an even
00:11:34.489 --> 00:11:38.609
bigger, more expensive mess in the messy
middle, and maybe some unnecessary drama.
00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:43.769
But I think that this, this topic
is so interesting because it kind
00:11:43.770 --> 00:11:48.109
of wakes you up to a different level
of awareness in how you think, but
00:11:48.110 --> 00:11:50.069
also how others might be thinking.
00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:55.199
And as I was thinking about it, I
think it can bring another level of,
00:11:55.239 --> 00:11:59.919
of empathy to the table as you're, as
you're dealing and, and in the past
00:11:59.919 --> 00:12:02.179
where you may have assumed ill intent-
00:12:02.839 --> 00:12:03.319
Jennica: Yeah
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.819
Deborah: on the part of someone else,
you could tell a different story in your
00:12:05.819 --> 00:12:08.849
head about what might be going on, and
that could spark some different types
00:12:08.849 --> 00:12:14.269
of questions and conversations that
can get things moving along positively.
00:12:14.300 --> 00:12:18.490
I was thinking about a situation I'm
advising a team and they're working with
00:12:18.490 --> 00:12:22.850
a, a software partner, and a piece of
the config and development work came
00:12:22.859 --> 00:12:27.359
back and it just didn't look exactly
like this business leader expected.
00:12:28.239 --> 00:12:32.649
And, um, you know, and when I think
about it through this lens, we had the
00:12:32.659 --> 00:12:38.599
prickly mode technician executing exactly
on maybe what was specced, handing it
00:12:38.599 --> 00:12:43.220
back, "Here it is, this is what you
asked for." And then a business leader
00:12:43.220 --> 00:12:44.969
saying, "This is not what I wanted.
00:12:45.869 --> 00:12:50.559
You should just know what I want
because you're in this industry."
00:12:52.819 --> 00:12:54.419
Um, and that's goo thinking.
00:12:54.929 --> 00:12:55.449
Jennica: Yeah.
00:12:55.549 --> 00:12:56.209
Yeah.
00:12:56.260 --> 00:12:58.189
Deborah: It, you know,
it… This is obvious.
00:12:58.229 --> 00:13:02.669
Well, to somebody who's in that technical,
prickly mode thinking, it's not obvious.
00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:02.699
Yeah.
00:13:03.129 --> 00:13:08.109
And so my advice was this is an
opportunity for a conversation.
00:13:08.119 --> 00:13:10.259
There's no ill intent on either side.
00:13:10.409 --> 00:13:10.739
Jennica: Yeah.
00:13:10.790 --> 00:13:15.049
Deborah: I think what you have here is
a mismatch in definitions of what good
00:13:15.049 --> 00:13:19.949
looks like or what success looks like,
and this calls for a conversation.
00:13:20.959 --> 00:13:23.699
And it's a gentle nudge,
"Hey, what happened here?
00:13:24.400 --> 00:13:26.269
This isn't the quality I was looking for.
00:13:27.060 --> 00:13:30.570
Did I miss it in, in what I specified?
00:13:30.579 --> 00:13:31.579
Did you miss it?
00:13:31.579 --> 00:13:34.839
Let's talk it through." It's
not, it's not accusation.
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:35.889
Jennica: Yeah.
00:13:36.010 --> 00:13:38.090
Deborah: You know, it's
just getting clear together.
00:13:38.109 --> 00:13:42.739
Multiply that by the hundreds, maybe even
thousands of times that those situations
00:13:42.739 --> 00:13:44.789
come up across a single initiative.
00:13:45.669 --> 00:13:49.210
And if you can see this and you can
catch it in the moment, you can save
00:13:49.210 --> 00:13:51.350
yourself so much time, money and drama.
00:13:51.969 --> 00:13:52.309
Jennica: Yeah.
00:13:52.829 --> 00:13:54.100
Deborah: It really changes things
00:13:55.214 --> 00:14:00.754
Jennica: There, there was a quote, and I
was trying to find it, um, but the, he,
00:14:00.784 --> 00:14:04.754
he makes the point that sometimes the
argument that you've been having with
00:14:04.764 --> 00:14:08.144
someone else is actually the argument
you've been having with yourself.
00:14:08.223 --> 00:14:08.643
Deborah: Mm.
00:14:09.813 --> 00:14:12.163
Jennica: Because of that
shifting in between, right?
00:14:12.163 --> 00:14:17.274
And, and I was like, man, that is so
powerful as a leader to just take the
00:14:17.284 --> 00:14:22.523
time to, to step back and do a little
bit of self-evaluation and recognize,
00:14:22.853 --> 00:14:25.904
where am I struggling in this?
00:14:25.954 --> 00:14:30.403
Like, where am I having a hard time
finding what the happy medium is
00:14:30.403 --> 00:14:31.964
between the prickly and the goo?
00:14:32.703 --> 00:14:37.573
And am I projecting that onto someone
else when in actuality it's something
00:14:37.574 --> 00:14:40.004
that I'm trying to resolve myself?
00:14:40.083 --> 00:14:44.494
And, you know, as leaders that, man,
we're moving so fast, and there's so
00:14:44.494 --> 00:14:50.763
much coming at us, and r- really just
taking just a pause to, to kind of
00:14:50.763 --> 00:14:52.774
do a little bit of self-evaluation.
00:14:53.003 --> 00:14:56.543
You know, is this an, is this a me problem
that I'm putting onto someone else?
00:14:57.113 --> 00:14:58.633
Um, I don't even want to say problem.
00:14:58.633 --> 00:15:02.013
It's just conflict, I guess, you
know, kind of trying to find that
00:15:02.013 --> 00:15:05.014
resolution, um, because we do.
00:15:05.093 --> 00:15:10.604
And, and there can be times where both
the prickly and the goo are vital, and how
00:15:10.604 --> 00:15:12.973
do you, how do you bring them together?
00:15:12.973 --> 00:15:16.024
And when we do bring them together,
that's when we have something beautiful,
00:15:16.953 --> 00:15:19.754
and that takes a little bit of, of work.
00:15:19.843 --> 00:15:20.503
So, um-
00:15:20.633 --> 00:15:21.013
Deborah: Yeah.
00:15:21.223 --> 00:15:22.174
It takes intentionality.
00:15:22.303 --> 00:15:22.723
Jennica: Yeah.
00:15:22.794 --> 00:15:23.373
It does.
00:15:23.593 --> 00:15:24.254
It does.
00:15:24.833 --> 00:15:27.573
So where do you see this framework
having the greatest implications
00:15:27.574 --> 00:15:29.443
for the future of organizations?
00:15:29.993 --> 00:15:33.284
Deborah: I mean, I don't know if
this framework, like- will have
00:15:33.284 --> 00:15:35.204
massive impact for organizations.
00:15:35.254 --> 00:15:38.544
Um, I, but I, I see value in it.
00:15:38.754 --> 00:15:41.324
I mean, it's just an article
that I, I came across.
00:15:41.324 --> 00:15:46.373
I'm like, ah, that is really
unique and interesting lens and
00:15:46.373 --> 00:15:47.884
a different level of awareness-
00:15:47.964 --> 00:15:48.493
Jennica: Mm-hmm
00:15:48.644 --> 00:15:53.214
… Deborah: that could really help teams that
are going through these tough situations.
00:15:53.814 --> 00:15:57.164
And, and we know that not
everybody thinks exactly the same.
00:15:57.743 --> 00:16:01.704
And, and, and so I think it's a,
it's an interesting tool that, to
00:16:01.704 --> 00:16:03.853
have in your toolkit as a leader.
00:16:04.003 --> 00:16:08.003
If you're leading innovation, if you're,
if you're accountable for the success of
00:16:08.003 --> 00:16:11.243
an innovation initiative, wherever you
are, if you're an individual contributor
00:16:11.243 --> 00:16:14.763
on the team, whatever level you're
playing from, I think that this is a
00:16:14.764 --> 00:16:16.123
framework that could really help you.
00:16:16.123 --> 00:16:20.324
But then I also was thinking
about it related to the, the five
00:16:20.324 --> 00:16:23.173
shifts of the TomorrowZone System
that I wrote about in my book.
00:16:23.794 --> 00:16:27.503
You know, the organizations that are
gonna be able to thrive for the future
00:16:27.503 --> 00:16:32.193
and take on continuous transformation
are embracing and living the five
00:16:32.193 --> 00:16:36.153
shifts that I talk about: align,
imagine, co-create, empower and evolve.
00:16:36.903 --> 00:16:41.993
But if we, if we zoom into the imagine
shift, imagine is deeply gooey.
00:16:43.083 --> 00:16:43.204
It is.
00:16:43.723 --> 00:16:48.513
And you have to be willing to not
know, to be able to hold ambiguity,
00:16:48.513 --> 00:16:50.533
to ask impossible questions.
00:16:51.473 --> 00:16:56.113
But executing on what you imagine,
that requires the prickly discipline
00:16:56.473 --> 00:16:58.703
of guiding principles, of role clarity.
00:16:58.894 --> 00:16:59.983
You gotta have both.
00:16:59.983 --> 00:17:00.153
Yeah.
00:17:00.153 --> 00:17:00.643
Jennica: Yeah.
00:17:00.703 --> 00:17:05.260
Deborah: But you sequence them
with intention And, and it's not
00:17:05.260 --> 00:17:07.180
that one is better than the other.
00:17:07.630 --> 00:17:11.070
W- we need both to, to make this happen.
00:17:11.580 --> 00:17:16.940
And so I think that maybe, maybe the, the
biggest implication to think about for,
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:21.330
for leaders that are, are taking on and
shaping the future is that when it comes
00:17:21.330 --> 00:17:23.659
to this framework, we need to be bimodal.
00:17:23.719 --> 00:17:29.229
We need to be fluent in both modes, and
recognize and, and, and leverage this
00:17:29.260 --> 00:17:33.860
to kind of shift the types of questions
or interactions that we're having, and,
00:17:33.860 --> 00:17:38.800
and just get skilled at understanding
which one the moment is asking for
00:17:38.810 --> 00:17:40.820
based on the context and the situation.
00:17:41.489 --> 00:17:42.080
Jennica: That's good.
00:17:43.489 --> 00:17:48.149
Towards the end of the article, Richmond
makes the observation that really expands
00:17:48.149 --> 00:17:49.999
the conversation, and that's about AI.
00:17:50.040 --> 00:17:55.290
And he, he makes the point that AI is
remarkably good at prickly thinking, and
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.499
really there's not so much with the goo.
00:17:58.049 --> 00:18:02.619
And that, you know, and he talks about
how sometimes the, the struggle that
00:18:02.619 --> 00:18:06.650
we have with AI is we're- we want
it to make the inferences, we want
00:18:06.650 --> 00:18:08.540
it to be gooey, and it's simply not.
00:18:08.549 --> 00:18:10.709
It's the most prickly thing out there.
00:18:11.479 --> 00:18:12.489
So if that's true- Very literal.
00:18:13.470 --> 00:18:14.340
Very literal.
00:18:15.419 --> 00:18:20.860
So, you know, if that's true, what
becomes even more valuable about how
00:18:20.869 --> 00:18:22.609
we as humans collaborate with AI?
00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:26.439
Deborah: So this kind of hit me hard.
00:18:26.439 --> 00:18:31.219
I've, I've experienced this directly in
my collaboration with AI over the years.
00:18:31.229 --> 00:18:37.369
But, but recently I've, um, I've come up
with some workarounds to deal with this.
00:18:37.419 --> 00:18:41.340
But also lately I've been seeing a lot
of people are discovering the prickly
00:18:41.340 --> 00:18:44.299
nature of AI and laughing at it.
00:18:45.159 --> 00:18:45.439
Yeah.
00:18:45.439 --> 00:18:49.149
And it's also amplifying just what makes
us special as humans, which I think is
00:18:49.150 --> 00:18:52.969
kind of fun, but, like, there's some
really funny meme videos out there I
00:18:52.970 --> 00:18:56.779
was gonna share- … but I don't have
permission to share them on this show.
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:01.340
But I saw one just yesterday that I was
trying to share with my husband, but
00:19:01.340 --> 00:19:03.619
I'm like, he's not really deep into AI.
00:19:04.569 --> 00:19:07.919
Like, it's, it's one of those, like,
if you know, you know kind of things.
00:19:07.919 --> 00:19:08.759
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:15.059
But, but it was a guy, um, talking
to, um, a duplicate image of himself
00:19:15.090 --> 00:19:19.599
behaving as if it were the AI, and, and
he's trying to split a sandwich in half.
00:19:19.629 --> 00:19:24.659
Now, when we say that, in our minds,
we imagine the, the sandwich, imagine
00:19:24.659 --> 00:19:28.439
like a submarine sandwich, and
you're gonna chop it in half in the
00:19:28.450 --> 00:19:33.479
middle, halfway, um, you know, in
the- Yeah … length of that thing.
00:19:33.709 --> 00:19:35.179
But the AI doesn't know that.
00:19:36.688 --> 00:19:38.958
Has no context of what
it means to be human.
00:19:39.418 --> 00:19:39.658
Jennica: Yeah.
00:19:39.658 --> 00:19:42.198
Deborah: Or that when we say
we want to cut the sandwich in
00:19:42.198 --> 00:19:45.898
half, that that's what we mean.
00:19:46.527 --> 00:19:50.358
And so the, you know, he was having
the conversation with the AI, "Cut
00:19:50.358 --> 00:19:52.997
the sandwich in half." And the AI was
like, "Yes, I will cut the sandwich
00:19:52.998 --> 00:19:56.858
in half." And it was like, you know,
splitting it in the middle where all
00:19:56.858 --> 00:19:58.317
of the lettuce and the meat are- Yeah.
00:19:58.318 --> 00:19:59.138
… and stuff.
00:19:59.138 --> 00:20:01.178
Like that, right there,
I'm cutting it in half.
00:20:01.178 --> 00:20:01.208
Sure.
00:20:01.208 --> 00:20:01.568
It's in half.
00:20:01.747 --> 00:20:02.768
"No, not like that.
00:20:02.777 --> 00:20:06.847
Do it better." "Okay, yes." And then
it like turned it around, and it's
00:20:06.847 --> 00:20:08.448
like doing all these crazy things.
00:20:08.448 --> 00:20:09.297
But, you know
00:20:11.380 --> 00:20:16.970
That's a really great illustration
of the difference, and, and I, I run
00:20:16.970 --> 00:20:20.290
into this in my own collaborations
with AI, where, uh, you know, I
00:20:20.390 --> 00:20:23.240
wanna, I wanna get a point across.
00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.339
And one of the things I'm learning
is you can leverage AI to help sort
00:20:27.340 --> 00:20:31.019
out your gooey thinking, to make
it prickly so that it works in AI.
00:20:31.709 --> 00:20:33.730
And so I even just did this this morning.
00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:37.369
Um, one of the workarounds that
I found, I'll, I often will pit
00:20:37.449 --> 00:20:42.200
Claude against ChatGPT, um, for fun.
00:20:42.609 --> 00:20:44.810
And, you know- … they're
just, they're just AIs.
00:20:44.810 --> 00:20:46.069
It's just machine intelligence.
00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:46.100
Yeah.
00:20:46.109 --> 00:20:48.149
Maybe it doesn't even know I'm
doing it, but I don't care.
00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:51.600
So one of the workarounds that
I've found is I'll, I'll, I'll
00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:57.690
ask one AI to build the prickly
instructions based on my gooey spoken
00:20:57.690 --> 00:21:00.119
description of what I want to achieve.
00:21:00.909 --> 00:21:04.419
And then I take those instructions
from that AI and I give it to the
00:21:04.449 --> 00:21:08.899
other AI, and I can get pretty darn
close to what I want on the first try.
00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.919
But I've found that I need to
leverage AI as a goo translator
00:21:14.589 --> 00:21:18.429
to get the prickly instructions so
that I can get the results I want.
00:21:18.910 --> 00:21:19.400
Jennica: Yeah.
00:21:19.529 --> 00:21:22.960
Deborah: Okay, without context,
that, that whole statement just
00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:24.869
sounded really funny- … to me.
00:21:26.050 --> 00:21:26.570
Anyway.
00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:27.869
Jennica: But I know what you mean.
00:21:27.870 --> 00:21:29.570
You're, yeah.
00:21:29.679 --> 00:21:30.119
Deborah: Yeah.
00:21:30.260 --> 00:21:32.409
Jennica: You're s- you're sort
of really like, like, you know,
00:21:32.489 --> 00:21:34.139
just dumping it all in one.
00:21:34.300 --> 00:21:34.589
Deborah: Mm-hmm.
00:21:34.589 --> 00:21:36.409
Jennica: Tell me what I need, and
then you're- Yeah … taking those
00:21:36.409 --> 00:21:38.219
instructions and actually feeding it into
00:21:38.959 --> 00:21:39.039
Deborah: the
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:39.099
Jennica: other one.
00:21:39.099 --> 00:21:39.199
Yeah.
00:21:39.209 --> 00:21:40.930
Deborah: So… And it's like, like,
we can do that with humans really
00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:44.489
easy, 'cause if I, like, I do this
to you, Jennica, all the time.
00:21:44.589 --> 00:21:46.709
"This is what I wanna do, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, stream
00:21:46.709 --> 00:21:47.789
of consciousness," whatever.
00:21:48.139 --> 00:21:53.090
And then Jennica can, like, through
her own special magic, like, translate
00:21:53.090 --> 00:21:57.819
that into project plans and timelines
and roadmaps and, and tasks and
00:21:57.830 --> 00:21:59.279
priorities and all the other things.
00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:03.479
And so I think that, you know,
this, this article kind of nails it.
00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:09.829
Like, our, our teams, our organizations
are often running on invisible goo,
00:22:10.609 --> 00:22:14.639
where we're expecting something
more prickly or vice versa.
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.280
And we talk a lot at TomorrowZone, and
actually, you started bringing this
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.239
up and reinforcing it continually.
00:22:21.239 --> 00:22:25.689
We need to make the implicit explicit,
and that is one of the things that we
00:22:25.689 --> 00:22:31.259
run into when we're collaborating with
an AI, because it's very literal and
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:35.009
it doesn't, you know… It does have an
inference engine, but it doesn't, like,
00:22:35.019 --> 00:22:37.269
infer the same way we would as humans.
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:40.170
It's, it's doing that based
on how it's been trained and
00:22:40.170 --> 00:22:41.180
what it's been trained on.
00:22:41.180 --> 00:22:45.900
And so, you know, I think
that's… It's just, it's, it's
00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:47.749
just another level of awareness.
00:22:47.840 --> 00:22:52.039
You know, I hear this, um, all the
time when I'm working with teams.
00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:56.618
"Well, they should just know."
And it's not that way with AI.
00:22:56.618 --> 00:22:57.148
No.
00:22:58.447 --> 00:23:02.768
Jennica: Well, you know, when you think
about, uh, just humans being gooey and
00:23:02.768 --> 00:23:06.838
kind of that innate being able to feel
someone else out, and then you think
00:23:06.848 --> 00:23:10.148
about some of the huge disasters that
we've had where companies have just
00:23:10.148 --> 00:23:16.098
unilaterally replaced humans with bots,
and in areas like customer service
00:23:16.118 --> 00:23:20.298
where you have people that are just
oozing emotion that are coming, right?
00:23:20.757 --> 00:23:23.587
And there's no goo, that
they're being met with zero goo.
00:23:23.587 --> 00:23:27.617
They're just being met with
prickles, and it's a nightmare.
00:23:28.017 --> 00:23:30.118
I mean, it's the worst
possible experience.
00:23:30.118 --> 00:23:35.727
And so it's… I th- I loved that he
pointed that out, that we innately as
00:23:35.728 --> 00:23:39.578
humans, I mean, even the prickliest
person has some goo in them, right?
00:23:39.587 --> 00:23:40.187
We know how to
00:23:40.187 --> 00:23:41.187
Deborah: deal with the goo, yeah.
00:23:41.187 --> 00:23:41.627
I mean, even-
00:23:41.627 --> 00:23:42.007
Jennica: Yeah
00:23:42.007 --> 00:23:43.477
… Deborah: Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory-
00:23:43.707 --> 00:23:45.277
Jennica: Yeah, he, he got there
00:23:45.278 --> 00:23:46.118
… Deborah: figured out how to deal with goo.
00:23:46.957 --> 00:23:47.217
Jennica: Yeah.
00:23:47.217 --> 00:23:49.977
Deborah: I mean, he's a really
great example of prickly thinking.
00:23:50.037 --> 00:23:51.357
Jennica: Yeah, exactly.
00:23:51.607 --> 00:23:51.977
But he got
00:23:52.098 --> 00:23:52.308
Deborah: there.
00:23:52.317 --> 00:23:54.457
But even he switched
modes from time to time.
00:23:54.467 --> 00:23:54.917
Jennica: Yeah.
00:23:55.138 --> 00:23:55.658
Yeah.
00:23:55.667 --> 00:23:55.707
You know?
00:23:55.717 --> 00:24:00.706
And so- Just recognizing that the
bot's not gonna do it, and that's fine.
00:24:00.706 --> 00:24:01.586
It's not what it's made for.
00:24:01.676 --> 00:24:01.916
Yeah.
00:24:02.056 --> 00:24:03.186
That's why we still need humans, right?
00:24:03.456 --> 00:24:03.656
So… Well,
00:24:03.656 --> 00:24:05.216
Deborah: yeah, and I think that
that's, like, the whole point
00:24:05.216 --> 00:24:06.796
of this article, you know.
00:24:07.016 --> 00:24:10.856
It's… Let's get back to the human side
of in- innovation and really understand
00:24:10.856 --> 00:24:15.316
what we're working with, whether it's
with other humans or, or with AI.
00:24:15.316 --> 00:24:18.276
There's a difference when we're
coming at it from a, a prickly
00:24:18.276 --> 00:24:22.565
mode or a goo mode, and it's just
a different level of awareness and
00:24:22.565 --> 00:24:24.645
a, and an interesting new lens.
00:24:24.806 --> 00:24:27.506
So I think this is- Mm … one I'll
come back to from time to time.
00:24:28.035 --> 00:24:28.835
Jennica: Absolutely.
00:24:28.896 --> 00:24:32.226
And, you know, one of the reasons
that this framework stayed with us was
00:24:32.236 --> 00:24:34.116
because it shifts that conversation.
00:24:34.116 --> 00:24:35.465
It gives us new language.
00:24:35.955 --> 00:24:39.105
And instead of asking how we get
everyone to think the same way,
00:24:39.125 --> 00:24:42.506
we begin asking how organizations
intentionally benefit from the different
00:24:42.515 --> 00:24:46.266
ways of making sense of complexity,
because that distinction matters.
00:24:46.815 --> 00:24:50.065
Future-ready organizations won't
succeed because they eliminate
00:24:50.065 --> 00:24:51.256
differences in thinking.
00:24:51.295 --> 00:24:54.995
They'll succeed because they create
clarity while making space for
00:24:54.995 --> 00:24:59.375
multiple cognitive approaches to
inform better strategic decisions.
00:24:59.986 --> 00:25:04.156
And as AI continues becoming part of,
part of how organizations operate,
00:25:04.306 --> 00:25:06.045
that becomes even more important.
00:25:06.556 --> 00:25:10.966
Technology contributes extraordinary
capability, but humans can
00:25:10.966 --> 00:25:12.285
contribute, contribute…
00:25:12.375 --> 00:25:17.086
can continue contributing context,
discernment, meaning, and imagination.
00:25:17.105 --> 00:25:20.565
And perhaps the opportunity isn't
choosing between prickles and goo.
00:25:20.956 --> 00:25:25.616
It's intentionally designing organizations
that know when each creates value.
00:25:26.215 --> 00:25:30.485
So as you leave today's conversation,
consider this: How is your organization
00:25:30.565 --> 00:25:34.866
making sense of complexity, and
where might a different perspective
00:25:34.986 --> 00:25:36.836
unlock new possibilities?
00:25:37.245 --> 00:25:40.345
And if this conversation resonates
with you, check out Deb's
00:25:40.395 --> 00:25:42.055
book, Enter the Tomorrow Zone.
00:25:42.115 --> 00:25:46.925
It's now available on Amazon
and an audiobook on Audible.com.
00:25:47.425 --> 00:25:50.825
And if you see yourself in it, book a
call with us, because we would love to
00:25:50.825 --> 00:25:52.405
explore shaping the future with you.
00:25:52.776 --> 00:25:55.675
As always, we love it when you
like and subscribe and share
00:25:55.675 --> 00:25:56.945
our episodes with a friend.
00:25:57.236 --> 00:25:58.155
Thank you for tuning in.
00:25:58.365 --> 00:26:01.386
Until next time, stay curious and
choose to make awesome happen.
